Anti-Pedo Cybervigilantes
“…The above is from a transcript of one of those IM chats, where a 22-year-old Lancaster man is attempting to arrange sex with a 15-year-old girl. Or someone he thought was a 15-year-old girl. That someone turned out to be ‘Silent Bob,’ a staff member of an Internet site called Perverted Justice, PJ for short, which trolls chat rooms around the country looking for, and exposing, those who use chat rooms to try and set up sexual trysts with kids… Van Erck, co-founder Frank Fencepost and nine anonymous contributors randomly select a regional room and pose as young girls, much as undercover police officers will do when they are looking to bust pedophiles. Unlike the police, however, private citizens like those with PJ have a lot of latitude. ‘As long as they’re not acting as an agent of the police, they can use trickery and deceit’ to snare would-be offenders, said one local police chief… And PJ follows through: In addition to posting transcripts of the ‘chats,’ e-mail addresses, real addresses, photos and phone numbers will be posted as they are available.” — LancasterOnline.com (US)
At first sight, the Perverted Justice web site is a pretty entertaining read. You can’t help but enjoy a lurid browse through the transcripts of chats between horny predators and the pseudo-lolitas who entice them. You look at the various photographs of these predators — you see the men preening, posing, showing themselves to advantage in an effort to impress their little girlfriends — and you can’t help but laugh at them. Even if you despise or perhaps even pity one of these men, it’s hard not to laugh at someone who’s had the tables turned on him. What’s more, the PJ site has a certain hipness to it — a lack of religious righteousness, feminist fundamentalism, or indignant victimism — that discourages you from taking any obvious moral stance. After all, let’s be honest: voting for the biggest slimeballs and their “most slimy posts” is simply too much fun to feel like a moral act.
If you get far enough past this initial reaction to think about it, the site raises some complicated issues. On one hand, there is an obvious parity in this form of vigilantism that makes it seem just. In other words, sexual predators use technology to prey on girls, so why shouldn’t these self-appointed knights use the same technology to protect what they apparently perceive as damsels in distress? On the other hand, though, you have to wonder if these tactics really accomplish anything. Pedophiles certainly know the risks they run. This doesn’t add much more risk, since it doesn’t result in arrest — and what harm does exposure really do? Time-strapped parents won’t keep visiting the site for updates when the odds of discovering a pedophile in their own neighborhood are virtually nil. Maybe employers could use it to run background checks on potential hires, so that sexual predators don’t get hired as kindergarten teachers. But many states already keep such databases, and it would be interesting to know if they’re even used.
So where does that leave PJ? Probably the most frequent visitors to the site will be rubberneckers looking to laugh at the perps. And what does that accomplish? Not much, morally. You can’t even say the perps on display will fear it much. What are the jeers of strangers? Nothing — jeers don’t mean anything if you can’t hear them.
I think this site is a good idea, when i was a teenager there were always guys trying to encourage me to meet them. They should be named and shamed. I also enjoy a good rubberneck
On second thoughts what they do on this site might be entrapment. I think some of people on the site were playing with fire and got burnt badly. I dont think they are all pedophiles on that site, some were seeing how far they could go.
But some of the content of the conversation are pretty shocking.
You’re right lily that some of the conversations strongly suggest entrapment — though of course it’s not legally entrapment, since there is no law enforcement involved. What the PJ staffers do is entirely legal. They’re just role-playing online, same as millions of other people.
That being said, is it right to shame and humiliate people who’ve just been “playing with fire?” Tough call. On one hand, if they genuinely believe they’re communicating with a ten-year-old girl, the moral thing is not to engage in dirty talk, even if the girl solicits it. On the other hand, if she’s fifteen, and if she’s leading the conversation, it’s hard to blame a guy for following through. After all, fifteen is less than twelve months shy of legal, and it’s all just make-believe and playing with fire until there is any real rendezvous between the parties.
So you raise a thorny issue. Is it right to brand someone a slimy pedophile if he hasn’t actually done anything in reality to warrant or prove his sliminess? Should you be pilloried just for talk? Well, if that were true, then you would have had to take out a warrant for Vladimir Nabokov who wrote Lolita…
In short, the issue is like this: where does free speech end and sex crime begin? If you say “fuck” in front of a child, is it sexual assault? If you say “I want to fuck” in front of a child, is it sexual assault? If you say “I want to fuck YOU” in front of a child, is it sexual assault?
I think this site is okay. The sad part is, so many people are so confused about sex and its meaning in our society. The media has strived for years to train the human mind to believe that petite, tight, skinny girls are on the top of the sexy scales. What we have in essence is a myth as all moral folks know, most women in the general population are not going to be as such. Therefore you have a multitude of would be okay upright working men out there and even women so I have heard that are in dire search of that skinny, tight (if you will) looking usually girl or sometimes boy. It is my belief that when they found that this just is not the normal case for girls over 18 and especially over 25. They set their sites on the young, attractive, tight, skinny girl, that is far too young to have sex or at least make an informed decision about sex. This in turn sets the stage for not only what was being looked for, pretty, tight, sexy girls but also adds the ingredient of ignorance of most would be young girls. It is my belief that law enforcement and agencies and sites like yourself need to see the real monster out there. It is not the individual in most cases, it is the way in which the honest hard working individual has been conditioned to think by our wonderfully rotten media. There has to come a time when we make the mass media responsible for that conditioning. And while there truthfully is a freedom of speech that should be upheld, that freedom does not come without prosecution of responsibility and accountability. My point is, it is easy to see that we have a major sexually perveted epedimic where are young girls are concerned, but what has caused these otherwise good people to think the way they are thinking in the first place???, is the true question.
It doesn’t make you “pro-molestor” to raise these points — they’re good points, tough questions. Hell, you can raise even more…
For example, when talking about adult men lusting after “young women,” it makes a big difference whether the young woman in question is six years old or thirteen years old. There is not much justification for finding a six-year-old sexually attractive. But a thirteen-year-old? A fourteen-year-old? A girl with the anatomical, if not the psychological, equipment for sexual behavior? It’s much harder to criticize a man who finds a teenager attractive, particularly in this day and age when models look like teens and teens dress like hookers.
This is not necessarily to say that the age of consent should be lowered — but it is to say that girls in their early teens occcupy a difficult gray area. After all, there have been places and times when thirteen and fourteen have been perfectly legal. Edgar Allan Poe married his thirteen-year-old cousin. Did that make him a pedophile? Or a “normal” man acting in accord with the society of his time?
Accordingly, it would be less morally complicated if the “girls” of Perverted Justice were posing as eight-year-olds rather than fourteen-year-olds…
A 14 yr old may be in a grey area to you. I want to know, tho, what would a 40 yr old man be doing chatting to a 14 yr old girl about? They can’t have much in common. Why bring up sex at all? If I get an IM from a kid about sex (yes it happens) I solve the problem quickly, I use the ignore feature and they are gone. The men on that site claim that they have never met a teen for sex, or done this before, etc etc. Even if that is true, then they are just weak willed sheep at the mercy of their own penises. They need to get a grip on reality and realize the amotional damage they can do to a child.
How do i join these people?
What they do is awsome.
I cant be a cop at the age of 16 but who needs the ranks when you can have this much fun and still make a small difference, or a big difference to the kid they could of possibly meet up with.
No matter what guys dont stop what your doing kids, teenagers need you.
the pj site is very biased. I used to be a avid follower of that site and it’s forums… I even posted a bunch of captured chats I had with the perverts, helping in the followup process.
I know that they scout out potential “busts”. I set up a false screen name and when into some local regional chat rooms where i recognized some of their screen names that they use for busting people. They initiated a chat with me… not just initiated but started by saying things like, “my parent’s aren’t home”, “I’m a virgin and very curious”, “my daddy doesn’t live with me”, “I’ve seen my mommy and her boyrfriend do it”.
When I confronted them with this information, they banned me from the forums. A day later, me and a friend signed in and checked out the forums… in the General Discussion section, they were talking about this former contributor that tried to set them up. They even had plans to hack my account and post personal information of me all over chat rooms.
This site is so fucking corrupt… if you don’t bow down and take it in the poopshoot for them, then you’re against them and they will treat you like one of their perv busts. Warning: STAY AWAY FROM THIS SITE!!!!
“I cant be a cop at the age of 16 but who needs the ranks when you can have this much fun” — NAMSIE, Dec 13/03
Oh, I see, NAMSIE. You are 16, under-aged, yet you wish to engage in sexually explicit conversations – pedophilic ones no less. I think you have some serious issues with your own sexuality and maturity. You’d fit in fine as part of the Perverted-Justice squad. What if you came across a real pedophile in your travels? Oh never mind. Just judge everyone who replies to your sexual provocations as a pervert. At 16 you can’t be a real cop, but you sure can be “thought police”. Everyone else does. Grow up, and hurry, before you get hurt. Several of PJ’s cronies are already under investigation for crimes such as cyber-stalking. Do yourself a favor and quit while you’re ahead, before you too get charged with a federal offense.
There is a burgeoning plague in the chat rooms – opportunists, predators, and deviants most vile. And that is Perverted-Justice.
Run by a self-styled libertarian ( Libertarianism [n] ðan ideological belief in freedom of thought and speech ) , who never-the-less administers with a tyrannical grip.
For example, the use of the word “harass” is forbidden even in debate among its inner-circle contributors, yet the site impetus thrives on all manner of foul language leveled against identified individuals whose real name, address, place of work etc. has been exposed to the world. Ah, but he was a “wanna be perv” you say. Most heinous. Thought crime is alive and well, and is punishable to the max by Perverted-Justice. Drooling lemmings provide phone fury a-plenty doled out to spouses, neighbors, and even children of the prey. But don’t fret – since “harass” has been replaced by “contact”, it’s OK. Another bit of oxymoronic conduct is the contributor/moderator/senior spokesman held view that it’s fine to counsel someone for suicide [ KashmirGoat: "... it wouldn't bother me in the least if he wound up sucking on the business end of a shotgun. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it" ... "That's the power and wrath of the public" ] as long as the cardinal rule isn’t broken: not to contact the media or the police. Gotta have your priorities. Self-preservation is a must.
We pause, take a deep breath, count to ten, and realize that our collective moral outrage against rapists and murderers has been hijacked by a bunch of punk ass college kids who get off fantasizing that they’re promiscuous 15 year-olds, holed up in an internet refuge of anonymity, a hacker’s haven. Hmmmmm, they ruminate: should I watch Star Trek? Survivor? Play Nintendo? Or pretend to be a slutty slut slut. Decisions decisions. What’s wrong with this picture?
While they are plying their skills to obtain personal information on their latest conquest, may he be condemned in effigy for all our pentup hatred … perhaps we can take a time-out and see the site for what it really is. If not, this one may help you regain some perspective: http://www.geocities.com/pjbuster2003/ Oh be forewarned, you may find yourself compelled to think for yourself again. Just don’t do any of them thar free-thinkin’ on Perverted-Justice’s forum. You’ll get a quick lesson in libertarianism – your user ID and IP address is railroaded clear out of town. If you’re lucky. Or perhaps you could be hacked, reverse-look-uped, MapQuested, department-of-motor-vehicled, real-estate propertied, school alumnied, and you may find yourself a veritable stalkee rather than a stalker. HEY, what’s your picture doing on that telephone pole. Ooops. PERV!!! [ gesture: point and stare ]
Let’s get this straight right off the bat. I am not a pedophile, a pedophile wannabe or have I ever entertained a fantasy of having sex with a girl not of my own age.
Ask yourself is what perverted justice does right if out of 1,000 people they get one wrong one?
Entrapment? No such thing, only law enforcement can do an entrapment.
We will call what perverted justice does a snare.
With a site like perverted justice there is a lot of room for abuse.
Want to get even with a boss?
Purchase a $100 prepaid cell phone then look for an agent. Identify yourself as your boss and your boss is history.
nopervertedjustice, I don’t know where you’ve been reading about this website, but it’s probably at http://www.geocities.com/pjbuster2003 which throws around alot of unsubstantiated allegations against the site.
First of all, not just anyone can post busts there. They have a tight knit team of contributors who have been trained in the protocol of the site.
Secondly, they don’t initiate conversations with these guys first. Pjbuster2003.com says they do, and some instances might be related to a yahoo bug which has been fixed which would indicate that they do initiate first, but keep in mind perhaps not all of the contributors have updated thier version of Yahoo Instant Messenger?
Thirdly, they do work with law enforcement due to thier Info First! program which grants agencies first look and access to files they wish to persue before they are posted. There is alot going on in the background that YOU don’t know about. From what I hear, they are currently aiding in more criminal proceedings against these pervs that you could count on a single hand.
Furthermore, they use a team of phone verifiers to make sure who they are speaking to is really who they say they are. Many of these verification calls are REALLY disturbing, like this one – http://www.thefarscapelounge.co.uk/hosted/rancher012003.mpl ~ You will need this audio player to listen to the recording: http://www.maklitel.com/page.aspx?div=Support&group=4
Warning about that recording: It is extremely disturbing and NOT WORK SAFE.
Unsubstantiated allegations? The pjbuster2003 site is a group if individuals that carefully review the alleged chat conversation i.e. encounters with the PeeJ baiters. They make a determination, based on findings of fact, from contacting previously baitedðindividuals. There are several documented incidents of PeeJ followers violating laws, that either engaged in the “bust” or those that act on their own accord reading information posted in the feedback forums section of the Perverted-Justice site.ðThe pjbuster2003 and others question the methods and tactics of hounding, harassing, defaming people and in some occasions threatsðof or actual acts of violence to individualsðthey judge to be a threat to society.
Tight knit team? With constantly changing Yahoo ID’s numbering in the hundreds, how are we to be sure? Trained contributors? Trained by Xavier, the site creator? Um, what specific psychological and legal training does he bring to the table? Are you saying the contributors are accredited in some manner, follow a rigid certification process to bait and switch? Or is the training more along the lines of “how to avoid getting PeeJ into real trouble with the law”?
Ah, the old “who initiated the conversation” defense. The pjbuster2003 site already acknowledges that the Yahoo Messenger bug may have been a plausible excuse in the past. They have never said that the bug wasn’t at fault for the mechanics of the missing first line. However, the bigger picture is: who INITIATES sexual innuendo by their very Yahoo ID name such as “sexy_suzy_15″ ? [made up as an example] Who INITIATES sexual innuendo in the chat room (this isn’t logged, conveniently). Who INITIATES sexual innuendo in the private IM chat? Who waited until well into the conversation before age was revealed? (which voids the claim the wanna-be knowingly initiated a chat with a minor). Who re-kindles (INITIATES) the chat when there is a long pause? E.G. “Are you there? Don’t you want to talk with me? Don’t you wanna f**k me”? Who INITIATES the telephone conversation? In short, who poses as a loose, slutty, sexually aggressive minor who’s had countless older boyfriends, and at times even sends or references pictures of a minor to the wanna-be?
Info First! is a theoretical notion whereby PJ works WITH law enforcement. This would be a leap indeed. An officer of the law would be spoon fed unsubstantiated, improperly obtained evidence, from non-deputized hackers. Scary. Some law agency would grant PeeJ the status of being a bona-fide arm of their evidence gathering initiative. I’m sure we’d all be interested in specific names of officers, departments, and legal agencies who endorse the PeeJ improperly conducted sting operations carried out by punk-ass college kids, not one of which has been screened nor has their own criminal backgrounds checked by said agencies beforehand. Boggles the mind.
“pj is corrupt” is a former BUST who is just trying to smear the shit around that hit the fan when they got busted! HAHAHA Thanks for the confirmation that PERVERTED-JUSTICE.COM really works!
Corona,
You are right, I don’t like the PJ site and I don’t like the tactics they use.
I have visited it and I regularly visit the forum but learned not to post regularly in fear of running afoul the local Hitler youth.
Xavier who lives in his moms basement. Why doesn’t he spend his energies finding a nice girl and advancing his career instead of spending, what has to be 30% of his time, dealing with this sort of thing?
To use a tactic the PJ Hitler youth uses the question begs to be answered “Does Xavier have ‘issues’ of his own?”
Visiting skinhead nazi sites, along with his good buddy Kashmier Goat going to Satanic sites, I would say we have a match pair of single 20 something year old males.
I didn’t have to go to another site to form my opinion I did that on my own.
In the last couple days there is a bust… my, oh my. Mein Fuhrer Adolf Xavier posts another bust of a mixed up, obviously sexually confused, 20 year old college kid chatting with a 14 year old girl who, by her manner and name. came on to him.
===========
littlecollegeman20 (6:21:41 PM): hi
littlecollegeman20 (6:21:43 PM): 20/m/il
littlecollegeman20 (6:21:47 PM): can i be ur footslave?? (WTF? Did I just read that right?)
cassiegrrrrl (6:21:58 PM): lol i dont no
cassiegrrrrl (6:22:07 PM): 14/f/wheeling. where in il r u?
littlecollegeman20 (6:22:17 PM): schaumburg
littlecollegeman20 (6:22:19 PM): near u
cassiegrrrrl (6:22:22 PM): kewl
littlecollegeman20 (6:22:33 PM): would u enjoy dominating me? (Again, WTF?)
littlecollegeman20 (6:22:53 PM): and ordering me around?
littlecollegeman20 (6:22:59 PM): id worship u and obey u always
littlecollegeman20 (6:23:04 PM): ??
cassiegrrrrl (6:23:20 PM): really?
littlecollegeman20 (6:23:26 PM): yes
littlecollegeman20 (6:23:33 PM): im totally serious (And he is not kidding people about being serious.)
=================
Not exactly what I would pick for my daughter but 14 and 20? Five, at most six, years difference? Give me a break, he may be a mixed up kid, with overactive hormones, but a pedophile he is not.
And the sick bastards at PJ savaged him. A 20 year old kid? Hey, he isn’t a sophisticated pedophile but a mixed up kid damn it.
Then there is posting photo’s containing showing more then the wannabe. I saw one once where Adolf posted a wedding photo of a bride and groom because it was the photo the perp, who happened to be best man, sent to the bait.
If someone did that with my daughters wedding photo I would find him and kick his ass. Stick up for the nazi’s at PJ all you want but that wasn’t the right thing to do and you know it.
But then, PJ has never been about doing the right thing.
I’m neutral about PJ and the anti-vigilantism scene. There is good and bad at both ends; however, I am very curious: PJBuster talks a lot on his site about laws that Perverted-Justice and its clan have broken (in reference to PJ folks, you state: “[everyone is] at risk of incurring legal challenge.”) I’m curious to see an actual reference to a federal or state statute that PJ has broken. Take a look at the video archives on PJ. An attorney speaks at the end of the TX segment and states: “I cant think of A SINGLE LAW, STATE OR FEDERAL, that applies here; however, both sides need to drink something cool and back off, because they’re playing with fire.” Nothing wrong with the latter part of the statement; however, PJBuster, since your mission is to “stop off line crimes,” (so says your site), please name a crime that PJ has committed. Your site states that you operate from a position of honesty and integrity, and that you treat others “in [with] the utmost respect.” I’d therefore appreciate an honest reply my inquiry. Thanks.
An example of on-line crime would be cyber-stalking… and there’s a lot of information here for cyber crime: http://www.cybercrime.gov/reporting.htm or on-line abuse: http://www.haltabuse.org/
Examples of off-line crimes, in decreasing order of criminality, would be things like property damage (vandalism), personal threats made against individuals, misuses of non public law-enforcement/legal databases, misuse of public databases, publicizing private information for the purpose of defamation, numerous ISP, host & website terms-of-service breaches. Not to mention soon-to-be broken FCC regulations regarding release of audio from private telephone conversations to internet. That’s when they start to disseminate sound, a breach of the “single party consent taping” exemption.
PJ maintains they have had legal support. Was that off-the-record opinion? I’m certain we, and the media would be interested in the legal arm or individual who certified their practices. Perhaps in the form of a scanned image of the letterhead that is verifiable. Just ONE non-anonymous, real person backing up their operation with their legal firm’s reputation backing them.
P.S. The day vigilantism & witch-hunts for thought-crimes become acceptable legal practices, is the day sites such as PJBuster and others as well as formal legal procedure of due process will become obsolete.
Perhaps you misunderstood my question. While it’s clear to me that you have very strong feelings about perverted-justice.com, I’ve got to reserve an opinion unless you can back up your operation with facts: you’ve mentioned property damage, personal threats, misuse of public databases, publicizing private information for the purpose of defamation, and numerous ISP, host & website terms-of-service breaches.
First, when did perverted-justice or one of its agents cause property damage?
As for personal threats: whom did PJ threaten? Their static page states that the organization condemns “even the thought of violence.” Are you implying that PJ is responsible if a site visitor commits a crime?
You’ve accused PJ of misusing a public database. Which database? When? I realize you’re aware that the dissemination of truthful information is never slanderous, and that public databases generally contain public information. Did PJ make something up about someone? If somebody posted FALSE or MISLEADING information, it’s not rocket science to find the author.
We are in agreement about one thing: baiting. Nobody should ever, ever, encourage a person for the purposes of “busting” them.
I am reserving an opinion because 1) emotional outrage against PJ seems to outweigh logic at this point, and 2) there is no legal precedent that I can find one way or the other on this issue. I would greatly appreciate some specific, fact-based legal background on your end.
I’d appreciate it if you could name a STATUTE or COMMON LAW precedent that PJ has broken and, if so, when this occurred. Your operation will move a lot faster if you can focus on a genuine, ascertainable, real “transgression” rather than relying on abstract tort concepts of property damage.
Finally, I am not trying to piss you off. I’m genuinely fascinated and a bit perplexed at the lack of solid legal claims; however, and I’d enjoy working with you to find a consensus here. Thanks.
I went and looked at the perverted justice site, I joined to read the forum too.
I was molested when I was younger, and I wish they were around to inform my mom and tell the neighbors so it would of stopped. I don’t understand why you are all against stopping child molesters anyway you can. If the police can’t get them, at least somebody is trying to stop them or let other people know what they are doing to the kids around them. or don’t you care about that?
lil o me…
If the police can’t get them, at least somebody is trying to stop them or let other people know what they are doing to the kids around them. or don’t you care about that?
The pj site is simply doing more harm than good. If the police can’t get them, that doesn’t give any average joe the right to start up a site and start ruining people’s lives. It’s called being a vigilante. That’s exactly what they are.
Bite me can think I’m a previous bust if that makes him feel better. Truth is I’m not, I used to be a avid poster and member of the followup section of the forums until I was thrown out and banned from the site for having individual thoughts different from the general mass or “collective”.
And round and round we go again, lil o me . You have undergone traumatic incidents in your childhood, granted. So have many of PJ’s agents. What a surprise. That does not make you or them an authority to judge the psychological makeup of an individual chatting with a manipulative PJ baiter. In fact, I would caution that you are singularly disqualified to make that determination objectively. You would look for an outlet to vent your anger. Understandable. You see demons under every rock.
lil o me “…at least somebody is trying to stop them or let other people know what they are doing to the kids around them. or don’t you care about that?” Um. What are they doing? Exactly? Chatting. Period. I haven’t seen any evidence of molestation, have you?
To reiterate for the umpteenth time, (do I need to shout?) We are indeed wanting to stop child molesters. Now please stop making the same mistake over and over again – the pronouncement of “guilty” of being child molester/baby raper/killer, etc., from an on-line chat.
jj: “I used to be a avid poster and member of the followup section of the forums until I was thrown out and banned from the site for having individual thoughts different from the general mass or “collective”.
Can you say “cult”? What with confirmed satanists, anarchists, dubious reverends, and women in the sex-trade and porn business doing the “busts”, while at the same time preaching morals and advocating cyber-stalking for the heinous thought-crimes, one has to wonder just a little about their true cause.
The internet is 99% fantasy play anyway and many of these people entrapped were probably just playing a game and fantasy. I think you should only bust them or make their information public if they actually show up to meet the ‘underage girl’.
And I seriously doubt that any of these people are real pedophiles anyway but just thrill seekers seeking a quick masturbationary fantasy over the internet.
One also has to wonder about a group of people who spend their time on the internet posing as little girls and attempting to sexually arouse other men. I wonder what their real motives are and if the whole thing isn’t just a smoke screen for their own sexual gratification.
Quilty
I think P.J. crosses the line.. the lead people into sexual situations even when they arent going there.Also it would be very easy for a jilted lover to set up an ex and send in there picture. P.J.puts the pic online and ruins the reputation of an innocent person. And they use such uneeded vulgar language, im sure it turns many people off just by the language they use
As a victim of child molestation at the age of 6, and with various family members in law enforcement (secret service agent, detective), I should be a big backer of this site.
And I would be IF I hadn’t seen their vicious chat-logs, opinions and their user rooms.The deeper you get in their own website, the more filth you’re slimed with, including links to blithering legions of white supremacists, lots of whom are outright calling for a race war-not just calling, but daring and insulting others to stop being “pussies” (their word, not mine) and who’ll be the first to be a man and start killing. And one way you reach these groups is to go through the PJ website, forums and chat rooms. These people are sadistic-minded and scary-They’re far more dangerous to children than those they ensnare. The few cases where they may HAVE done good with their outings do NOT outweigh the hate, damage and sadistic mindsets on both their own site, and responding to critics on sites outside their control (the favored way being to brand anyone who disagrees with them as a pedophile, or pedo lover.
Don’t just take my word for it-check it out for yourselves.
While purging spam from PervScan this entry was accidentally deleted, but then restored. Everything seems to be here, but apologies to anyone if their comment was actually deleted.
P.S. A curse on anyone who leaves comment spam on PervScan.com.
That has to be one of the best tactics ever created to nab some of these guys. I hear now though the Feds and some local depts. are a little p.o.’d by P.J. because it makes them look ignorant about the problem. Also heard a cop from D.C. was nabbed, even though IAD tried to ignore it, but couldn’t after it made the 10pm news. Makes you wonder who’s really behind some of those badges!
Well, “Lt.”, that’s being cynical. I suppose it can be possible that there is some professional jealousy among law enforcement, if they are “shown up” by volunteers who do a better job.
From another blog on Feb 22: “The strange ‘wannabe cops’ from the Perverted Justice site, on the other hand, know nothing about the chain and custody of evidence, or what is entailed in a REAL investigation where the suspects computers are impounded and forensically analyzed to confirm the particulars of the case.” — Richard, (a former law enforcement officer involved with investigating cyber crimes against children)
Now think what you will about law enforcement and some conspiracy theory, but the fact remains that those institutions have in place guidelines and rules of engagement they must follow. Everything is scrutinized and traceable during an investigation, and is routinely analyzed. The fine institution that is PJ has no transparency, no accountability, and no credibility with anyone. They may even have perfectly well-meaning yet misguided individuals working there with not an ounce of malice. But we don’t know. Chances are, behind their anonymity, there is a greater possibility the PJ defamation machine is being used as personal vendetta tool against anyone they deem evil. Case-in-point, the PJ cofounder ‘Tattooed Indian Guy’ AKA Frank Fencepost, set up a ‘friend’ on purpose – and even admitted to IM’ing him first. This friend was in the cut-throat competitive tattooing business as well.
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?archive=felixxx60 – Aug 6/03, “bust” by Tattooed Indian Guy:
“… Furthermore, this guy is a tattooist, like I am”
“For a short time, I kinda took this guy under my wing, if you will. I even gave him a job, temporarily- that is, I let him work in the shop I worked at, while I was gone on vacation. I thought he was a good, solid guy, a reputable tattooist, and a decent character. I’m usually a really good judge about things like that- but in this case, I was very, very wrong. When I PMed Isaac as a 14 yr old girl, I did it mostly on a lark- I expected he’d know right away what was going on, and he’d make some smartass remark like “Yeah, right Frank”, and we’d share a hearty “LOL”. But he took the bait and ran with it, and what you see here is the result of that. Thanks for reading.”
Read that part again: “I PMed Isaac as a 14 yr old girl”
Makes one wonder if there was some business rivalry, if you choose to ignore the obvious PJ protocol rule breaking for a minute (never to PM first)
By-the-way, Tattooed Indian Guy in a fit of anger against a “bust” exposed his own crippling psychological/sexual dysfunction. Far be it from me to make light of tattooed_indian_guy’s issues. But I would recommend he seek professional psychiatric counseling for his phobia of sex. His current outlet in the form of lashing out at those who CAN have sex is not healthy for either party concerned. Cleverly he targets those who are condemned for their alleged intents by the general public, and by visitors to PJ’s followup forums who are subjected to PJ’s one-sidedness. Would tattooed_indian_guy pass psychological screening & mental competency at this point? Should he, in his current impairment, be doling out diagnoses of others?
Tattooed Indian Guy AKA Frank Fencepost – cofounder of PJ along with Xavier, bills himself as “The first PJ’er”. He has (had) rank of contributor (actually participated in doing “busts”) and forum moderator. Tattooed Indian Guy has not been heard from since Feb 20, was recently removed from the staff page of PJ.
Tattooed Indian Guy has a history of trolling chat rooms pretending to be a minor, then ridiculing the adult: “Spam the room about 1000 times, giving his phone number, his name, and a brief run-down of what he was trying to do”. This was before the perverted-justice site’s existence. In his words: “I just wanna take this opportunity to thank Xavier for giving me the chance to post this “good work” online- without this website, I don’t think any of this would make even the limited amount of sense that it makes now.”
Sorry about the long post. I felt it was important to reveal what an influential founder, “the first PJ’er” of perverted-justice was all about.
WELL, IF IT ISN’T QUILTY!!!!!!!!!
one of the biggest known pedophiles of DanPedo. Makes me wonder how many of you are…..
Since my article above of Mar 30/04 there have been some significant developments.
Frank Fencepost AKA Tattooed Indian Guy, cofounder of perverted-justice.com has been removed from their staff. He was found to have made physical threats to silence fellow coworkers he was having affairs with. Angry German AKA Xavier Von Erck removed Frank, his bio, all his comments on followup and other forums, as well as 62 of his “busts” have been deleted. That represents about 9% of PJ’s total work. Poof. Caused quite a stir on PJ – May 5 to about May 9th until Angry German locked the thread down.
“What do we know about Frank Fencepost?”
http://corrupted-justice.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=86
.. for a summary and comments. Frank also posts there May 18/04. 3:42pm and 8:19pm.
See also
An open letter to Frank Fencepost (May 18/04)
http://corrupted-justice.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=210
… which encourages him to do the right thing. He has not responded as yet.
Perverted Justice : Cyber-vigilantes or lynch mob?
Finally a balanced in-depth article about perverted-justice in a 7-page exposÈ:
Perverting Justice : Cyber-vigilantes or lynch mob? A citizens’ group seduces men into lurid chat with “underage” girls — and makes them pay.
By Susy Buchanan – Jul 15/04
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2004-07-15/feature.html
I’ve been searching the net for info on how to report a pedo & somebody trying to send me kiddie porn. I have a location and full IP address, thought I could do SOMETHING about it, anything. But now, after reading this site I see it doesn’t matter. Nobody really gives a good goddamn about the kids do they? Just save your own ass I guess. Hey heres an idea, lets just hide our heads in the sand, click on the next link, tell ourselves they aren’t real children. Don’t know about some of u out there, but I’m having a little trouble sleeping, seeing this same pedo online day aftere day free to do his thing. Thanks for opening my eyes. Have a great day now.
Here is the truth about corrupted-justice.com. They are nothing but a bunch of pedophile enablers.
Don’t take my word for it, here’s a site that breaks it down for you.
*ALERT* here’s all the dirt that had been swept from under the corrupted-justice.com – pedo’s rug… read of the PEDO’S and PEDO-ENABLERS. Learn who admitted to molesting a 2 year old baby…cough*RealActivist*cough
Go here and learn all the ugly fact hidden behind them and their forum.
I am 17 years of age and I surf the net for pedo sites to report email me back i Have a site with pics and links to other sites.Chase in the FBI said you were a reliable source for shutting these types of things down.
Again thank you for your time,My email is XXXXXXX
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXX
YOUR NAME AND EMAIL ADDRESS HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THIS POST BY THE ADMINISTRATOR.
EVEN IF YOU ARE A MINOR YOURSELF, IT IS ILLEGAL TO BROWSE CHILD PORNOGRAPHY. YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE IT UPON YOURSELF TO DO THE WORK OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.
HOWEVER, IF YOU WANT TO REPORT CHILD PORNOGRAPHY TO AUTHORITIES, CONTACT YOUR LOCAL POLICE OR FBI REPRESENTATIVE. ALTERNATIVELY, THERE ARE ALSO WEB SITES WHICH YOU MAY USE TO REPORT CHILD PORNOGRAPHY. YOU CAN FIND THESE VIA GOOGLE.
Information uncovered, and subsequently turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) and to other law enforcement agencies by http://www.corrupted-justice.com (an civil rights/anti-vigilante website, who has been investigating perverted-justice.com for over a year), shows that the owner of perverted-justice.com (Xavier Von Erck) has not only corrupted the morals of several minors at his site, but that he has exploited at least one minor.
Satine, a “PeeJ” contributor, who uses the line “Mrs. Von Erck”, was only 16 years old when Xavier and the (at that time) co-owner Frank Fencepost was having her have hardcore sexual chats with men in their 20’s and 30’s, and even possibly having her watch these men masturbate on webcam in order to post it on the front page of perverted-justice.com. She was a 16 year old child when she did her first “bust”. The Federal satutes state that a person is a minor until the legal age of 18. Having Satine do that would, by Federal standards, be considered the exploitation of a minor, if I am interpreting the law correctly. Satine’s birthdate is: July 16, 1985 and her first “bust” was on January 1, 2002 (it was saved as an HTML file and turned over to authorities).
Further, there is information collected from the perverted-justice.com forums which indicates there are many more minors (Erika, from Canada, was 15 when she became online friends with Xavier Von Erck (owner of perverted-justice.com) and 16 when she started to help out at PeeJ). Crowgirl09 is currently a 14 year old who contacts dangerous predators for perverted-justice and harasses them. Geris was 13 and involved in a “sex” thread on the PeeJ forums in which they were discussing the taste of semen. There are many more minors involved on the PeeJ forums.
It is believed that by having hardcore sex chats, and photos of the “busts” masturbating on webcam (which are also posted at perverted-justice, in some of the main chats) and knowing minors are there reading this, this could be legally considered corruption of the morals of minors.
Further, evidence has come out, and has been turned over to the above mentioned authorities that proves that Xavier Von Erck himself stole someone’s identity and contacted their server host (it was a server that hosts a website called http://www.corrupted-justice.com, which is an civil rights/anti-vigilante website which questions PJs tactics) claiming that he was this other person, so he could get them to reset the passwords for the http://www.corrupted-justice.com website.
On top of that, server logs indicate that Xavier Von Erck and those from perverted-justice.com were responsible for three successful hackings of the corrupted-justice.com website.
The chats these alleged perverts have are illegal and I do not condone nor support them. I think each one of them should be turned over to law enforcement and if found guilty in a court of law, be sentenced according to the laws. Each one of them– not one here and there, but all of them. Those who prey on or exploit minors should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Even when they exploit a 16 year old who uses the online name Satine.
I feel those preying on minors online needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but as you will see in the following two links, they do more harm than good to prosecutions:
http://www2.townonline.com/sharon/o…rticleid=152900
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ar…cused_official/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=260587&page=1
here is a list of some of the things they have been able to provide provable information about perverted justice and they have turned the information over to Federal authorities and to lawyers working on lawsuits against “PeeJ”:
1. that the owner of perverted-justice.com has possibly exploited at least one minor (Satine, at age 16 (she is now an adult) was made to go into chat rooms and have hardcore sex chats with men in their late 20s, 30s and possibly even older, in order for the owner of perverted-justice.com to post them on his website.)
2. that the owner of perverted-justice.com has allowed social security and DMV records to be posted on the perverted-justice forums, including the DMV records of people NOT associated with someone they have busted.
3. that the law violation of stalking occurs and is bragged about on the PJ forums. (several busts have had Followup Forum participants stalk their house, taking photos of their house, vehicles, and taking note of who is in the neighborhoods)
4. that the law violation of threats against lives, and against livlihoods are posted on the PJ forums. (one such death threat was recorded on an answering machine tape and has been turned over to authorities).
5. that the owner of perverted-justice HIMSELF stole the identity of the owner of corrupted-justice.com to unlawfully gain access to their servers to get access to their hidden forums and private messages.
6. that on three other occasions, those from perverted-justice.com have hacked into their forum systems, and stolen their databases and stolen their private information.
7. That an elderly relatives of a “bust” have been harassed.
8. That members of “PJ” have harassed neighbors and friends and relatives of “busts”.
They have plenty of other proof (such as the fact that they themselves get harassed relentlessly for speaking out against perverted-justice.com with harassing phone calls, harassing instant messenger messages and harassing emails, and so does everyone else who speaks out against perverted-justice.com. Others who were defamed or harassed by those at perverted-justice.com include TeamAmberAlert’s site owners (Xavier has posted photos of the owner’s house on his site), the well known activist Julie Posey (they called her “money seeking whore”), a civil rights attorney from California who was working on a lawsuit against PJ (they spread lies claiming that attorney is a member of Nambla), and anyone else who speaks out against them.
You should check out their site at http://www.corrupted-justice.com and you will see the truth about perverted-justice.com and they don’t just tell you to believe it, they show you actual proof of it, and provide links to where they found the proof on the PJ forums making it easy to verify.
Just look at both sides of the issue before you decide that perverted-justice.com is so great, because if your neighbor is ever busted, you too will become a target of harassment.
One last thing before I sign off on this message:
Take a long hard look at these photos. This was an EX-WIFE of a “bust” who they targeted because they could not find information on that bust himself. This harassment of her has gone on for a full year now, and she had to move to a new town to avoid the threats and harassment. Her small children had to be sent to an “undisclosed location” due to death threats against her and her children because of her ex-husband being “busted” by PJ. They threatened her and her children because they could not get to the bust himself. But here is photos they got of her off of webcam as they told her her life was going to be destroyed:
http://id_this.yafro.com/photo/124941
This is an innocent woman, who had her life destroyed because of PJ– lets hope you never know someone busted by them, because you too just may have your information posted in their forums.
Newest Updated Information:
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index…789;fp;2;fpid;1
“Man arrested for ‘01 Airforce hacks
Paul Roberts, IDG News Service
12/04/2005 09:12:15
A popular Venezuelan hacker known as “RaFa” was arrested April 2 and charged with hacking into U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) servers almost four years ago. ” *Click link for full article*
But then this:
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/10868
Which discusses the hack attacks against the Air Force and also NASA (I believe it was Seth Pack who did that) this is in the last couple of paragraphs of the news article:
“Pack cooperated with investigators, but intends to help out Nuñez. Along with Perverted-Justice, a group that attempts to aid child-pornography investigations, Pack drafted a letter calling others to help. ”
So perverted-justice.com is calling for people to support a hacker who is facing jail time for hacking, which is a federal crime.
Is this really who you want protecting your children?
I say let those in law enforcement handle it so REAL convictions can be made, and keep those who harm children off of the streets.
Thank you for taking the time to read everything I have presented.
Everything in this message is verifiable, and those at http://www.corrupted-justice.com will be more than happy to pass the verifable information directly to the lawyers and law enforcement who request it (I think they also will provide this information to media upon request too).
Now, those who support “PeeJ” will call me a pedo, a pedo-enabler, and accuse me of being this person or that person, just for speaking out (they have done this against those at corrupted-justice.com, TeamAmberAlert, Julie Posey, and many, many more people who have spoken out against “PeeJ” but all information is verifiable and those at corrupted-justice.com are more than willing to pass this information on to those in Law Enforcement, lawyers for verification.
Has there been anyone who has heard from Frank Fencepost? I am a friend of his who is trying to get ahold of him. I have known him since he was 17. He is not the bad guy you guys make him out to be. He truely beleived in the work of peeJ. I haven’t heard from him in about a year. The last I knew he was in OK.
Would you like to see the REAL story behind the folks who are against PJ?
Visit:
http://www.corrupted-justice.net
Then you will understand their REAL motives.
Truth Seeker,
Matty, are you still out PeeJ trolling. And lookie, you’ve got a new ID too.
But for those of us who know who you really are, lets reminisce. http://tinyurl.com/dts6m
Okay, now that you made everyone know I am such a horrible person, now explain why it is acceptable that in 2002 and 2003 Xavier Von Erck (I will be kind and not post his real name) used two actual minors to go into chat rooms and have cyber sex and watch men masturbate on webcam.
Want proof? I will be happy to post how Xavier used BlaneH, born either Sept. 25 1986 or Sept. 25 1987 when in August of 2002, he was a PJ contributor (yes, that would make him about 14 or 15 years old). And that is not mentioning Satine, who was born July 16 1985 and was doing busts in 2002, and 2003. SHe was 16 for her first bust, and 17 for 15 other busts she did, at least one in which she watched an older man masturbate.
Further, what are the credentials of the PJ contributors? They ARE “protecting children” (by busting potentially dangerous predators, only to let them go with a few phone calls so they can go out preying on more children), so what are their credentials and training?
I am sure the parents of society’s children that PJ claims to be protecting want to know that they are properly trained and educated.
Bottom line is this– snide remarks aside– what accountability is there for their mistakes (which I will happily post here), and what gives Xavier the right to use minors to catch predators? I admit he no longer has minors actively contributing (he still has plenty of minors harassing busts and sending harassing PMs to them), but at least now he doesnt allow them to acively watch them masturbate on webcam (however he does give them easy access to the photos of it on the “wankers” section of PJ, which has not age verification).. If you do not think having pornography like that accessible to minors is a bad thing, then it seriously does throw PJ’s credibility down the toilet.
Remember– you can post any “dirty laundry” about me all you want, but the issue is not about me– it is about PJ. Spin it as you wish, but the public is finally wanting some answers about PJ and their tactics, and their behaviors.
The lies about underage contributors has already been disproven here:
http://www.corrupted-justice.net/?archive=27
Yet, you continue to spread those lies.
The lie about minors having access to PJ can also be easily disproven. Simply examine the source of the PJ web site and you will see “” – that is specifically there for filtering programs to prevent minors from viewing “mature” content.
AS for credentials? A “thank you” from the U.S. Department of Justice was nice, but I prefer the 26 (and counting) convictions. YOUR credentials can be found here:
http://www.corrupted-justice.net/?archive=29
And here:
http://www.corrupted-justice.net/?archive=28
And here:
http://www.corrupted-justice.net/?archive=18
When you have a decidedly pro-pedophile history, I would say your lies about PJ are *definately* the issue here.
[quote]Yet, you continue to spread those lies.
The lie about minors having access to PJ can also be easily disproven. Simply examine the source of the PJ web site and you will see Ҡ– that is specifically there for filtering programs to prevent minors from viewing “mature†content.[/quote]
Zen, dear. I personally made a 13 year old profile complete with my age stated clearing in not only my Yahoo profile, but also in my first post at PJ. I registered. I did get in. Try again.
Take a look at the reality of this war…
Haha. 38 real-time convictions as per Information First agreements with law enforcement.
Don’t like what we do? Boo hoo. Millions of concerned parents who have watched Dateline, read the site, and law enforcement in their towns seem to disagree with you.
Whine on, enablers. We’re still going and we’re only growing.
Micahel Zenferret Simon is a hate-filled liar who points to what he and his cronies on http://www.corrupted-justice.net call “truth”, but in fact are blatant lies. Thier version of the truth has everyone who disagrees with PJ’s policies as a pedo-enabler, just for disagreeing. Adk Xavier Pj’s website guru about his conviction rate. Fourty convictions out of over 1000 men busted! That’s way less than 1%. If PJ was so effective their conviction rate would be much higher.
Just Google to find what LE says about working with PJ. Lamost every one of them says, NO WAY! They’re vigilantes who are going to get someone huet. Leave busting pedos up to the professionals. But Eide’s (Xavier) ego is too big for that. And Zenferret is his puppet. Read http://www.corrupted-justice.com for another side to this story – the truthful and right one.
Whoo-hoo – Dateline 3 – Perverted-Justice.com working hand and hand with the police.
50 pedophiles that wanted to fuck a child were arrested.
All pedophiles should be either Hung, Drawn and Quartered or Burnt at the Stake. The world has no use for such depraved sewage of society who can attempt reason to an underage child ‘lures’ them into their depravity.
Burn them All and let God sort them out! (I speak for the silent, outraged majority)
Death to Perverts!
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